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    Missile Defense

Keywords: lasar

n Missile Defense #6761 - rshowalter Jul 8, 2001 08:17 am
In
MD6737 gisterme 7/7/01 3:50pm ...and .. MD6738 gisterme 7/7/01 3:59pm

gisterme admonishes me to check things --- and since that posting, I've been doing so, to some degree - and that will continue. What I'll show -- and with more checking, this can be shown beyond any shadow of a doubt -- for people with any sensible feel for the "miracles" that can be achieved-- is that the lasar based weapons, that the Bush administration has been risking so much of our safety for -- are total frauds --- or, if you wish to be more charitable there -- examples of group incompetence to execute a task -- and self deception carried to a point where justice would be a harsh judge indeed, on the people involved...

n Missile Defense #6752 - rshowalter Jul 7, 2001 08:52 pm
I'll be doing some more checking in the morning --- it feels like time for a beer, and sleeping on some things.

After all, I've got to worry about some "High School trigonometry" that gisterme expects I don't know how to do. I'm worried that he may be right, after all, so I'll try to be careful...

n Missile Defense #6751 - rshowalter Jul 7, 2001 08:49 pm
Interesting questions about the thermal distortion in those aiming mirrors, which have to be MUCH better than Space Telescope - thermal distortion and all. Wonder how GOOD the reflection -- the emisivity isn't perfect anyway.

Another question is how much energy gets delivered to do damage to the missile...

n Missile Defense #6750 - rshowalter Jul 7, 2001 07:32 pm
gisterme , these calculations aren't so easy . . not for me, not for anybody -- and they take some guessing, because data isn't always there -- and ingenuity of defenders (who can spend a few thousand bucks to get fine advice) ...

n Missile Defense #6748 - rshowalter Jul 7, 2001 07:26 pm
Emissivity, not reflectivity, is the term I was looking for. It is the amount of incident radiant energy absorbed -- and without being too fancy, for solid surfaces, it varies over a ratio of more than 50:1 . From close to 1 (though nothing's perfectly black) to less than .02 ...

n Missile Defense #6747 - rshowalter Jul 7, 2001 05:47 pm
I do have some things to check -- like the wavelength incoming - reflectivity of a moulton metal layer at that wavelength -- things like that.

You're talking about enough energy, if it is all absorbed, to boil away about a 2.4 cm layer of water over the surface hit by the lasar -- quite a lot of energy -- if the beam, when it gets there, is that intense, has that time on target --and if all the energy in the beam is absorbed.

If you do have pictures, or data, that show that the lasars really can do impressive damage - under particular conditions -- that would be interesting.

n Missile Defense #6736 - rshowalter Jul 7, 2001 03:29 pm
"spinning an ICBM that needs to be guided to a very specific trajectory to release its MIRV bus would seem impractical. Remember that the inertial navigaion system for an ICBM controls a vectored thrust rocket. That guidance system needs to give constant feedback to the thrust vectoring system to assure that the booster is on just the right trajectory at the instant of payload release."

the spin of the rocket itself would be a small, and easily compensated complication -- and a pretty cheap way of making a missile immune to a boost phase lasar (assuming an accurate enough and powerful enough one was even available.)

VERY cheap, compared to the missile defense system itself, even if a lasar one could be built...

n Missile Defense #6734 - rshowalter Jul 7, 2001 12:51 pm
Note that I have agreed that the Garwin proposal for a close in, smart rock, boost phase intercept was feasible, and maybe a good idea, if one thinks the threat is worth the resources, and can't be adressed in other ways.

http://www.fas.org/rlg/20.htm

http://www.armscontrol.org/ACT/sept00/bpisept00.html

MD6676 gisterme 7/6/01 12:16pm ... MD6677 rshowalter 7/6/01 12:19pm
MD6680 rshowalter 7/6/01 12:53pm ...

n Missile Defense #6733 - rshowalter Jul 7, 2001 12:15 pm
The reservations on the basis of energy (not energy per unit time -- the total energy it actually takes, concentrated, to do real damage) remain as well -- rshowalter 7/6/01 8:55pm

So do the issues of distortion. Would better mirrors reduce distortion problems? Sure...

n Missile Defense #6732 - rshowalter Jul 7, 2001 12:06 pm
If the numbers of needed resolution are "classified" and not discussable, you can put together a good story for lasar based missile defense. If you put numbers in there related to what people can actually do in the open literature, in areas where people have been both well equipped and sophisticated for many years - - then the things I've said, that you can accesss by searching the word "shuck" fairly apply.

This system can't possibly work, and if the people building it don't know that -- they've carried self deception, and communal deception, very far...

n Missile Defense #6726 - rshowalter Jul 6, 2001 08:55 pm
I'm wondering about units -- and have only just a little time - I'll look at much more in the morning. How much TIME on target do these lasars have to have?

To melt a piece of ice, you have to heat it to its melting temperature, and then add the heat of fusion -- everybody knows that...

n Missile Defense #6722 - gisterme Jul 6, 2001 08:13 pm
rshowalter wrote ( rshowalter 7/6/01 5:01pm ): "...It isn't so easy to blow something up with a lasar. Lasar welding works nicely, but some very stout lasars make some very small, concentrated (and pretty) spot welds..."

Industrial lasers used for cutting 1/8" metal use power levels on the order of 200 W. So if the beam area is about 0.2 cm^^2 then it delivers the same 1kW/cm^^2 needed to destroy an ICBM...

n Missile Defense #6720 - rshowalter Jul 6, 2001 07:43 pm
Back later (may have to be tomorrow).

Do want to repeat the question, gisterme.

Can the government now blow something up with a lasar, at short range , in ways that can impress a Congressman?..

n Missile Defense #6718 - gisterme Jul 6, 2001 06:38 pm
rshowalter wrote( rshowalter 7/6/01 4:35pm ): Well, for a lasar weapon, the reasons you can't necessarily hit what you can see are basically independent of brightness (how big N is) if the signal is bright enough.

What we were talking about, Robert was locating and tracking the target. According to dirac, a lower power wider beam laser would be used to illuminate the actual rocket body so that the high power narrow beam laser can hit it...

n Missile Defense #6713 - rshowalter Jul 6, 2001 06:03 pm
The engineers, twenty and more years ago, who concentrated on smart rocks, rather than lasar beams, had some good reasons for their choice.

As terribly unattractive as "smart rock" approaches can be, for complicated or long distance targeting, "death ray" approaches are worse.

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