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 [F] New York Times on the Web Forums  / Science  /

    Missile Defense

Technology has always found its greatest consumer in a nation's war and defense efforts. Since the last attempts at a "Star Wars" defense system, has technology changed considerably enough to make the latest Missile Defense initiatives more successful? Can such an application of science be successful? Is a militarized space inevitable, necessary or impossible?

Read Debates, a new Web-only feature culled from Readers' Opinions, published every Thursday.


Earliest Messages Previous Messages Recent Messages Outline (14778 previous messages)

rshow55 - 10:00am Oct 11, 2003 EST (# 14779 of 14792)
Can we do a better job of finding truth? YES. Click "rshow55" for some things Lchic and I have done and worked for on this thread.

This is superb:

A War-Weary People Reach Out in Pain — and Hope By JOHN F. BURNS http://www.nytimes.com/2003/10/12/weekinreview/12BURN.html

" Perhaps, after all, it is the politicians and their formulas that matter, not the common person's voice, at least as expressed to an outsider judged eager to hear expressions of good will."

Could we have logical problems - control problems - calibration problems that we might come to understand, and handle better?

I think so.

http://talk.guardian.co.uk/WebX?14@6@.4a90f6e9/85

A lot of plots look like images you see in many fractals - and some plots of this kind that are practical are shown in books like Analysis of Nonlinear Control Systems by Dunstan Graham and Duane McRuer 1961 - Dover ed 1971

Some quotes from that fine book are set out in 7895-7 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.cAmUbPYNNVn.1959860@.f28e622/9421 :

"Some of the most unpleasant surprises of which nonlinear control systems are capable are

1. divergent instability

2. limit cycles

3. multiple equilibrium points.

( end quote )

For large perturbations of nonlinear systems that are not controlled at a higher level, divergent instability is the rule - multiple quasi-equilibrium points are not surprises, but the overwhelming expectation - and limit cycles are the best, as a practical matter, that anybody can actually hope for - or can actually get. Very, very often - what happens looks fractal.

But with care - and switching - designed for particular cases and calibrated - excellent performance can be achieved. It isn't likely to happen by accident, though.

Lchic cites this, pointing out something basic, primordial - and not previously understood nearly well enough:

Rejection really hurts finds brain study http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994257

13464 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.cAmUbPYNNVn.1959860@.f28e622/15155 highlights some pieces by Natalie Angier - that deal with closely related and vitally important issues:

. In the Crowd's Frenzy, Echoes of the Wild Kingdom By NATALIE ANGIER http://www.mrshowalter.net/IntheCrowd'sFrenzy.htm . Why We're So Nice: We're Wired to Cooperate By NATALIE ANGIER http://www.nytimes.com/2002/07/23/health/psychology/23COOP.html

. Of Altruism, Heroism and Evolution's Gifts in the Face of Terror By NATALIE ANGIER http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/18/health/psychology/18ALTR.html

but we hate , too - and the reasons we do are built very deep.

. The Urge to Punish Cheats: Not Just Human, but Selfless By NATALIE ANGIER http://www.mrshowalter.net/UrgeToPunishCheatsNotJustHumanButSelfless.htm

Nicholas Wade deals with an important and related issue - Play Fair: Your Life May Depend on It http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/21/weekinreview/21WADE.html :

We need to understand these things better - not only emotionally - but as control problems , too. I think this thread has worked toward that - dealing with MD - where there are control problems, too.

14006 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.cAmUbPYNNVn.1959860@.f28e622/15712

klsanford0 - 11:54am Oct 11, 2003 EST (# 14780 of 14792)

rshow55:

From Cooper's Cato quote above http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-337es.html :

"First, any NMD system will probably have at least two different media for the detection and discrimination of incoming warheads—radar and infrared (IR). For the NMD system to be fooled, effective countermeasures would have to successfully simulate both the radar and IR signatures of a real warhead. The statement makes a lot of assumptions about what our sensors, guidance, and delivery systems can actually do do. Or could possibly do.

1667 http://forums.nytimes.com/webin/WebX?8@13.cAmUbPYNNVn.1959860@.f28e622/2087

Key questions about specific missile defense systems can be discussed without using any classified information at all.

Here are the key questions, for any specific system:

Can it see the target?

Can it hit the target?

Can it hurt the target?

Unbelievable!! Can it be true...?? Is this the first of twenty thousand posts where Showalter actually makes one single reference to MD, even in the midst of his usual Nonsense...??

"can it hurt the target?"

Well, Mr. Showalter, most nuclear explosions tend to do some slight damage...

klsanford0 - 12:45pm Oct 11, 2003 EST (# 14781 of 14792)

Misinterpretation of Showalter's question in the above post...

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 [F] New York Times on the Web Forums  / Science  / Missile Defense