![[F]](../_images/site.gif) New York Times on the Web Forums  Science
Russian military leaders have expressed concern about US plans
for a national missile defense system. Will defense technology be
limited by possibilities for a strategic imbalance? Is this just SDI
all over again?
    (5382 previous messages)
rshowalter
- 03:45pm Jun 18, 2001 EST (#5383
of 5400) 
Robert Showalter
showalte@macc.wisc.edu
A list of some of the NYT coverage closely related to President
Bush is on proceeding postings. Prior dialog is at and before MD5377
rshowalter
6/18/01 3:14pm .
The mass of coverage of President Bush is so great that the
President could never read it all.
The material on which he has to make judgements is, of course,
much broader still.
It takes a staff, and any automated help possible to facilitate
rather than impede human judgement, to deal with this.
Matters of war and peace, and international cooperation between
the US and Russia, in the world as it is, are also intractably
complicated, in similar reasons, and some of the interactions will
take staffs to comb out and master.
rshowalter
- 03:49pm Jun 18, 2001 EST (#5384
of 5400)
Robert Showalter
showalte@macc.wisc.edu
When two cultures that are very different and have
systematic misunderstandings have to make real peace, and learn
to interact, that will take staffing, too.
Technically, and humanly, it is now possible.
I feel that it is worth doing.
Some will have to involve governments, but some ought to involve
members of the broader societies of both countries.
We are different enough that we can't "take for granted" each
other's minds -- minds that have been formed by "swimming" in
very different "seas" of information.
gisterme
- 03:55pm Jun 18, 2001 EST (#5385
of 5400)
rshowalter wrote: "...The history of the Bush family's
connection with the NAZIS, especially in light of the fact that
George Bush Sr. was appointed and served as a direct of CIA, is also
worth considering, it seems to me..."
Is that due more consideration than the Kennedy family's
connection to the nazis in the pre-war period, considering that
later on JFK was president, RFK was Attorney General and Senator and
that Bobby Kennedy is a Senator?
My understanding is that Joseph Kennedy, the family patriarch,
had to resign his job in the Roosevelt administration because of his
pro-nazi views. That resulted from his comment to the effect that
democracy was obsolete given the new German model of government.
Of course those folks in either family didn't have the 20-20
hindsight that you seem to be so unfairly applying here, Robert.
Keep in mind that the nazis pandered to wealthy and influential
Americans and Brits. Don't forget that those things we both refer to
took place before the evil of the nazis was revealed in a way that
the world was ready to believe. Once the war started both families
offered their sons to fight against Axis evil. That counts a lot
more for me than what went before.
You should give that line of bad-mouthing the Bush family a rest.
It is totally bogus. You and possumdag should know better...it seems
to me...
rshowalter
- 04:15pm Jun 18, 2001 EST (#5386
of 5400)
Robert Showalter
showalte@macc.wisc.edu
I've had some concerns, and of course I could be wrong about
them. In some ways it is somewhat like the Lewis story. There is so
much information out there that, picking and choosing, you can come
up with "a body of evidence" for a number of different positions,
most, of course wrong.
All anybody can do is see patterns, consider them provisionally
(and that means maintaining doubt) and check them when it matters
enough.
I must say I've had some concerns, and had them a long time. . .
. .
I'll also say that, fair or not, from personal conversations, a
lot of Russians have a hard time making distinctions between us and
the Nazis - - sometimes for reasons I can see.
The Nazis, after all, were similar in a lot of ways to the
ancient Romans.
I certainly have been concerned with "big lie" techniques in the
press (which, of course, were in use when Hitler was barely walking)
. . . and very systematic patterns of misinformation -- that you can
see in all sorts of situations, when governments exert authority.
* * * *
All in all, I'm a good deal more interested in the future than in
the past - - though I'm concerned about some things in the past.
Some of the patterns that characterize the extreme right wing of the
Republican party (and other parties, left and right, in outher
countries) please me very little.
I do think the facts, however extenuating the circumstances,
argue that George W. Bush is descended from fallible people, like
the rest of us. That means, to me, that he bears some checking, not
only on issues of good judgement, but also on issues of good will.
Again, like the rest of us.
gisterme
- 04:37pm Jun 18, 2001 EST (#5387
of 5400)
rshowalter wrote: "...Perhaps the pictures are the most
eloquent part of the story - - showing Bush in a typically
"friendly" awkward-coercive stances, and showing Putin's discomfort
and distaste..."
Hahahahaha. Now there's a spin job if I ever saw one, Robert.
That's a gas! That sounds more like wishful thinking on your part
than anything that was shown in the pictures that I saw. All I saw
was two world leaders chatting cordially as they walked down a
tree-lined lane and two world leaders standing at identical podiums,
one listening respectfully as the other spoke.
Even if you believe what you said, it's hard for me to believe
that you think many people would have reached the same conclusion
based on the minute or so of video that was shown. Sounds more like
you're trying to attach your biased view to the images in other
people's minds. Isn't that a brain-washing technique? Is that what
you mean by "psyche war"?
If you can find a few who are weak-minded enough to let you plant
your interpretaion in their minds, then you can have 'em. They can't
think for themselves anyway. Personally, I don't know a soul who is
unable to draw their own conclusions from watching a video. I also
find it hard to imagine anybody but you reaching the conclusion you
did. Does Dawn need YOU to tell her what she saw? Mercy!
For me, all that statements like that do is destroy your
credibility as an honest broker in this discussion.
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